Market research for new PowerPC system

Discussion:

Konstantinos Margaritis

2009-09-26 11:38:38 UTC

(Sorry for the cross-posting, please ignore if you are not interested
in this, CC me as I'm not subscribed)
Hi,

First some introductions. I'm Konstantinos Margaritis, a long time
Amiga/BeOS/Linux user/developer and a PowerPC fan, former Debian
Developer, also a SIMD/AltiVec fanatic and the author of libfreevec.
I've posted this on the following sites:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29594&forum=33&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49424

http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11

http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=3768&forum=4

http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/market_research_new_powerpc_system#comment-12604

To anyone who is not a PowerPC user, it might seem like crazy, but
here it goes:

I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC
system (well, the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a
case). No this is not a joke, I've been wanting to do this for a long
time, and perhaps the chance will be given to me now. But before I
spend any money on this, I want to do a little market research first.
I know the market is literally "dying" for a new powerpc motherboard,
but exactly how many are there that want to buy one?

Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choices -not
in order of probability/importance:

1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher
frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board
would be prohibitive.
2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and
includes a 2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise).
Apart from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit
ethernet, dual SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the
MPC8610). So this one would lower the cost of the board quite much.
Disadvantages: No AltiVec unit (it sucks I know), though it includes
an SPE unit which is not that bad, and availability will be in Q3/Q4
2010, so that's a long wait.

Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610
case) or PicoITX (in the P1022 case), and it will definitely include:

* SATA connectors
* USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable)
* Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the
MPC8640D we might even have 4!!!)
* Sound (of course, SPDIF support will definitely be there)
* 1 PCI-e slot 1x
* 1 PCI-e slot (4x in the P1022 case, 8x in the MPC86xx cases)

Ok, what I want to know is if people would really really buy one of
these. End price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022
board or ~500EUR (definitely more in the case of 8640D) in the case of
the other boards. Besides being more expensive, the MPC86xx chips,
don't include SATA, USB and only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in
MPC8640D case, or sound in the case of MPC8610). I know this sounds a
lot, but it's the reality, there is not enough funding to build
enormous amounts of units and bring the prices down substantially, we
have to start low and build up from there. In case you are wondering,
yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and funded by my
company (Codex).

Support for OSes: Linux definitely, Haiku most probably and there is a
possibility of supporting AmigaOS/MorphOS, which will depend on the
actual feedback I get from those users.

I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in
such a system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner
rather than later if you would send me a few personal details to ***@codex.gr
with subject "PowerPC board":

* Name
* Country
* email (definitely, I'd have to reach you back!)
* Phone/Skype (optional, please include international prefix)
* Forum you saw this post (ok, Morphzone in this case)
* OS of preference
* board you would be most interested in (MPC8610/MPC8640D/P1022)
* preferred price (please have in mind the estimated price quotes I
mentioned, it might be lower but that's not very probable)
* Other notes/comments

Also, I found out that I had to state my case on many forums to prove
that this is not vapourware. Well, it will not be vapourware, if I get
feedback. So far the feedback I got can be summarized here:

http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=60

Thanks a lot for your time and I hope this system becomes a reality.

Konstantinos Margaritis

Codex

Guennadi Liakhovetski

2009-09-26 17:58:52 UTC

Permalink

Ok, just a short comment. In principle I like diversity, competition, etc.
And it was somewhat sad when Apple abandoned ppc. But honestly - why
should I be buying a ppc desktop system? If we restrict our comparison to
Linux, because that's what I'm using, what advantages would a ppc system
give me over a comparable in price ix86 system? This is not meant
negatively, I just have not followed recent ppc CPUs from the "desktop"
range, so, this is a real honest question. Would such a system provide
more MIPS per Watt at the same price? Or more periferals? Or some specific
hardware blocks unavailable or unsupported om ix86?

Thanks
Guennadi

Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choices -not in order
1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher
frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board would be
prohibitive.
2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and includes a
2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise). Apart
from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit ethernet, dual
SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this one
would lower the cost of the board quite much. Disadvantages: No AltiVec unit
(it sucks I know), though it includes an SPE unit which is not that bad, and
availability will be in Q3/Q4 2010, so that's a long wait.
Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610 case) or
* SATA connectors
* USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable)
* Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the MPC8640D we
might even have 4!!!)
* Sound (of course, SPDIF support will definitely be there)
* 1 PCI-e slot 1x
* 1 PCI-e slot (4x in the P1022 case, 8x in the MPC86xx cases)
Ok, what I want to know is if people would really really buy one of these. End
price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or ~500EUR
(definitely more in the case of 8640D) in the case of the other boards.
Besides being more expensive, the MPC86xx chips, don't include SATA, USB and
only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in MPC8640D case, or sound in the case
of MPC8610). I know this sounds a lot, but it's the reality, there is not
enough funding to build enormous amounts of units and bring the prices down
substantially, we have to start low and build up from there. In case you are
wondering, yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and funded by my
company (Codex).
Support for OSes: Linux definitely, Haiku most probably and there is a
possibility of supporting AmigaOS/MorphOS, which will depend on the actual
feedback I get from those users.
I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in such a
system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner rather than later if
* Name
* Country
* email (definitely, I'd have to reach you back!)
* Phone/Skype (optional, please include international prefix)
* Forum you saw this post (ok, Morphzone in this case)
* OS of preference
* board you would be most interested in (MPC8610/MPC8640D/P1022)
* preferred price (please have in mind the estimated price quotes I mentioned,
it might be lower but that's not very probable)
* Other notes/comments
Also, I found out that I had to state my case on many forums to prove that
this is not vapourware. Well, it will not be vapourware, if I get feedback. So
http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=60
Thanks a lot for your time and I hope this system becomes a reality.
Konstantinos Margaritis
Codex
_______________________________________________
Linuxppc-dev mailing list
https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/linuxppc-dev

---
Guennadi Liakhovetski, Ph.D.
Freelance Open-Source Software Developer
http://www.open-technology.de/

Brian Morris

2009-09-29 03:46:37 UTC

Permalink

I think that you should start out with something of the sub-netbook type.
These are the next generation and coming up very soon. For a home computer
you need at least dual core and at those speeds it will need a very low
price and small footprint.
If you could sneak in on the sub-net quick perhaps power could become 2nd to
ARM as AMD is to Intel. Intel is trying to sneak in but there could be some
anti-trust issues, especially if there are other contenders (maybe).

Its really too too bad PA-SEMI killed by apple last year. I am still mad
about that. That was a really really nice cpu, 2ghz and 7watt and 64bit.
Should have been illegal.

The first subnetbook may likely be an apple product, and a tablet with an
optional separate keyboard and a 9.5 inch screen, and the ARM cpu...

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Guennadi Liakhovetski <

Post by Konstantinos Margaritis

(Sorry for the cross-posting, please ignore if you are not interested in

this,

CC me as I'm not subscribed)
Hi,
First some introductions. I'm Konstantinos Margaritis, a long time
Amiga/BeOS/Linux user/developer and a PowerPC fan, former Debian

Developer,

also a SIMD/AltiVec fanatic and the author of libfreevec. I've posted

this on
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29594&forum=33&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49424

http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6465&forum=11
http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=3768&forum=4
http://www.haiku-os.org/community/forum/market_research_new_powerpc_system#comment-12604

To anyone who is not a PowerPC user, it might seem like crazy, but here

I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC system

(well,

the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a case). No this is

not a

joke, I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and perhaps the

chance

will be given to me now. But before I spend any money on this, I want to

do a

little market research first. I know the market is literally "dying" for

a new

powerpc motherboard, but exactly how many are there that want to buy one?

Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choices -not in

order

1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher
frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board would

prohibitive.
2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and

includes a

2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise).

Apart

from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit ethernet,

dual

SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this

one

would lower the cost of the board quite much. Disadvantages: No AltiVec

unit

(it sucks I know), though it includes an SPE unit which is not that bad,

and

availability will be in Q3/Q4 2010, so that's a long wait.
Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610

case) or

* SATA connectors
* USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable)
* Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the MPC8640D

might even have 4!!!)
* Sound (of course, SPDIF support will definitely be there)
* 1 PCI-e slot 1x
* 1 PCI-e slot (4x in the P1022 case, 8x in the MPC86xx cases)
Ok, what I want to know is if people would really really buy one of

these. End

price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or ~500EUR
(definitely more in the case of 8640D) in the case of the other boards.
Besides being more expensive, the MPC86xx chips, don't include SATA, USB

and

only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in MPC8640D case, or sound in the

case

of MPC8610). I know this sounds a lot, but it's the reality, there is not
enough funding to build enormous amounts of units and bring the prices

down

substantially, we have to start low and build up from there. In case you

are

wondering, yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and funded

by my

company (Codex).
Support for OSes: Linux definitely, Haiku most probably and there is a
possibility of supporting AmigaOS/MorphOS, which will depend on the

actual

feedback I get from those users.
I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in such

system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner rather than

later if

* Name
* Country
* email (definitely, I'd have to reach you back!)
* Phone/Skype (optional, please include international prefix)
* Forum you saw this post (ok, Morphzone in this case)
* OS of preference
* board you would be most interested in (MPC8610/MPC8640D/P1022)
* preferred price (please have in mind the estimated price quotes I

mentioned,

it might be lower but that's not very probable)
* Other notes/comments
Also, I found out that I had to state my case on many forums to prove

that

this is not vapourware. Well, it will not be vapourware, if I get

feedback. So

http://www.codex.gr/index.php?pageID=&blogItem=60
Thanks a lot for your time and I hope this system becomes a reality.
Konstantinos Margaritis
Codex
_______________________________________________
Linuxppc-dev mailing list
https://lists.ozlabs.org/listinfo/linuxppc-dev

---
Guennadi Liakhovetski, Ph.D.
Freelance Open-Source Software Developer
http://www.open-technology.de/
--
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact

Brian Morris

2009-09-29 03:54:15 UTC

Permalink

one other idea (sorry)
Debian is not providing an altivec optimized version. If you want that you
have to go with Gentoo. If you were building cpu optimized from the ground
up with the libaltivec and perhaps the c++ altivec libraries (that require
translation for the changed library calls to all the source codes that use
them -- ughh) -- it would be a lot more interesting. I've thought about
doing the Gentoo but its a lot of compiling, especially on slower cpus (I've
had some experience with fink and macports in MacOSX which want that too)

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Guennadi Liakhovetski <

Post by Konstantinos Margaritis

(Sorry for the cross-posting, please ignore if you are not interested in

this,

CC me as I'm not subscribed)
Hi,
First some introductions. I'm Konstantinos Margaritis, a long time
Amiga/BeOS/Linux user/developer and a PowerPC fan, former Debian

Developer,

also a SIMD/AltiVec fanatic and the author of libfreevec. I've posted

this on
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29594&forum=33&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49424

To anyone who is not a PowerPC user, it might seem like crazy, but here

I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC system

(well,

the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a case). No this is

not a

joke, I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and perhaps the

chance

will be given to me now. But before I spend any money on this, I want to

do a

little market research first. I know the market is literally "dying" for

a new

powerpc motherboard, but exactly how many are there that want to buy one?

Ok, let's give some rough specs first. I'm considering 3 choices -not in

order

1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher
frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board would

prohibitive.
2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and

includes a

2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise).

Apart

from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit ethernet,

dual

SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this

one

would lower the cost of the board quite much. Disadvantages: No AltiVec

unit

(it sucks I know), though it includes an SPE unit which is not that bad,

and

availability will be in Q3/Q4 2010, so that's a long wait.
Now, the end motherboard will probably be MicroATX (in the 8640D/8610

case) or

* SATA connectors
* USB (possibly 2 back and 2 front, but that's discussable)
* Dual gigabit (at least one will be there, in the case of the MPC8640D

these. End

and

only one of ethernet/sound (quad-gige in MPC8640D case, or sound in the

case

of MPC8610). I know this sounds a lot, but it's the reality, there is not
enough funding to build enormous amounts of units and bring the prices

down

substantially, we have to start low and build up from there. In case you

are

wondering, yes, the boards will be designed/produced by bPlan and funded

by my

company (Codex).
Support for OSes: Linux definitely, Haiku most probably and there is a
possibility of supporting AmigaOS/MorphOS, which will depend on the

actual

feedback I get from those users.
I would like to make a list of everyone that is really interested in such

system, so it would really help me make a decision sooner rather than

later if

mentioned,

it might be lower but that's not very probable)
* Other notes/comments
Also, I found out that I had to state my case on many forums to prove

that

this is not vapourware. Well, it will not be vapourware, if I get

feedback. So

---
Guennadi Liakhovetski, Ph.D.
Freelance Open-Source Software Developer
http://www.open-technology.de/
--
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact

Leon Woestenberg

2009-09-26 18:15:14 UTC

Permalink

Hello,

first off, I like your idea. This is my public reply, I'll give a
personal reply later.

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Konstantinos Margaritis

I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC system
(well, the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a case). No this

What makes the system stand out, from say a Atom based PC?

(I know, playing devil's advocate here)

1. MPC8640D-based. It will be dual core at 1Ghz -most likely, higher
frequencies are much more expensive and the cost of the final board would be
prohibitive.
2. MPC8610-based. Single core at 1Ghz, slightly less expensive, and includes
a 2D DIU display unit -quite fast, but no 3D unfortunately.
3. QorIQ P1022-based. Again dual core at 1Ghz (1055Mhz to be precise). Apart
from the much lower chip price, this one includes dual gigabit ethernet,
dual SATA, USB 2.0 and a 2D DIU display unit (same as the MPC8610). So this

Go for QorIQ P1022, it's the ideal SoC for many applications.

Alternatively, it's predecessor MPC8536E available now, ~same specs,
but higher power. But not the two you mention please.

End price is estimated to be ~around~ 350EUR for the P1022 board or ~500EUR

Pico P1022 or Pico MPC8536E pls.

and throw PCI Express (x4) in the party!

(hint: I haven't seen an Intel board with Atom and PCI Express yet).

Will the board be open hardware? I.e. an open sourced design?

Regards,

--
Leon

Chris Friesen

2009-09-28 23:01:27 UTC

Permalink

Post by Konstantinos Margaritis
I'm considering funding the design & production of a new PowerPC
system (well, the motherboard, the rest are typical pc stuff and a
case).

It might be interesting as a low-power system. For a development box,
this looks more interesting:

http://www.fixstars.com/en/products/powerstation/specs.html

$1250 USD gets you two dual-core 2.5GHz 970MP chips.

Chris

Chris "Bigguy"

2009-09-29 03:45:15 UTC

Permalink

Speaking for myself, and I'm a small-time consultant to the local Small-Office Home-Office market, I would wholeheartedly welcome the arrival to the market of a PowerPC/Power motherboard. I would commission local builders to create servers and desktops that would have that one extra layer of protection from malware.

I believe it would also give developers a platform to hone their skills on a native platform for the embedded market.

I wholeheartedly endorse the creation of a PowerPC/POWER motherboard. I'll be one of the first customers.

All my best - Chris Reich; Rochester, New York

Subject: Re: Market research for new PowerPC system
Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 7:01 PM
On 09/26/2009 05:38 AM, Konstantinos

Post by Konstantinos Margaritis
I'm considering funding the design & production of

a new PowerPC

Post by Konstantinos Margaritis
system (well, the motherboard, the rest are typical pc

stuff and a

Post by Konstantinos Margaritis
case).

It might be interesting as a low-power system. For a
development box,
http://www.fixstars.com/en/products/powerstation/specs.html
$1250 USD gets you two dual-core 2.5GHz 970MP chips.
Chris
--

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